Curse

Mss Drizzt · Mar 28, 2005, 04:08 PM // 16:08

I have a question.?? Keep in mind that I have not yet played PvP.

Everyone keeps giving the cold shoulder to Warriors. What if the Warrior were to go straight for the oposing monk.?

WNxTyphoon · Mar 28, 2005, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mss Drizzt

I have a question.?? Keep in mind that I have not yet played PvP.

Everyone keeps giving the cold shoulder to Warriors. What if the Warrior were to go straight for the oposing monk.?

Everyone goes for monks first. Without them, it's a lot easier to kill everyone else.

I don't think anyone is saying that Warriors aren't useful. They just aren't high on the priority list by any means.

Sausaletus Rex · Mar 28, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Interesting topic. Rampant and inexplicable Korean worship aside.

Basically, there's going to be a spectrum of conditions, enchantments, and hexes that you'll be matched up against with your removal (And stances and shouts and rituals, if those things had effective counters, but they don't, so we'll ignore them. And abuse the heck out of them.). Against certain "weight classes" your removal is going to be ideal. Such skills have no prayer against you if you've brought effective removal. Against others removal is going to be ineffectual. It won't matter if you've brought removal or not because you just can't affect such skills in time. But it's against the last class, that removal is really pitched towards.

First, there are the heavy-weights. These are those skills that have long cooldowns or high resource costs that make them ripe targets for removal. If they stay up they're generally of great benefit because they're either so efficient or so powerful as to justify their cost and/or cooldown. These are the skills that don't survive in the face of effective removal. They're too bulky, too slow, too costly, when someone is capable of consistently removing them in an efficient manner. These are the skills that you want to protect, if you can, through throwing up chaff and other methods because they're the ones that hurt you most to lose. They still have their place because if you can get them to work, they're good enough to make it worth it, it's just with effective removal you can't get them to work each and every time. They're high risk - you'll see them stripped often, but high reward - when they do work you can really take advantage, but when removal is up to snuff they're by and large sub-optimal - at least until people stop using them enough to lull strategies to sleep and you can do some damage before they wake back up again . These are your Dazed, your Mark of Rodgorts, your Aegis.

Light-weights are next. These are those skills that are either so quick to act or so quick to recharge and cheap enough to recast that removal is all but useless. They're more efficient and more rapid that removal. Or, their benefit is something that you can't catch with a removal because it'll trigger almost right after a skill is cast. They're just too quick so they slip under the radar, as it were. Removal can't touch them so they get ignored. Fortunately, because they're ignored by removal they tend to be pretty ineffectual. They do something but they're not going to swing the battle one way or the other with just one cast. They're weak and a large part of why you use them is that they're unlikely to be countered and when they are they're likely screening another, bigger skill that you don't want countered. These are the skills you use for chaff because they're cheap and expendable. In the face of effective removal they become the mainstay of any buffing/debuffing strategy. These are your On Fires, your Malaise, your Reversal of Fortunes.

The final class is the medium-weight. As the name might suggest they live right in the middle. Neither too big nor too small. They can't be ignored, as light-weights can because they have effects that can actually cause some harm but they can actually be used often as heavy-weights can't because they're cheap enough or efficient enough to make it worthwhile. It's here that the most pitched battles between move and counter move are waged. And it's here where the balance point lies. If these medium range skills are worthless to cast then removal is probably too strong. If these medium range skills are impossible to counter then removal is too weak. When removal is fine, you won't be getting the full duration out of such skills, in all likelihood, but you'll live with it because you've done your damage. They're either front-loaded, like Lingering Curse, or the benefits of having it around even slightly are good enough to keep it in play, like Backfire (Well, maybe... If people are stupid, certainly. And most people are pretty stupid yet. Soon as they learn to stop casting or to change their casting patterns Backfire is nothing. Although it still is pretty disruptive). Simply put, these are the skills you want to counter. And these are the skills your opponent wants to use.

Now, where exactly those weight-classes are defined is probably the most important consideration. The more you think people should be able to use hexes effectively, the comparitively weaker you make removal. You add in cost or recharge time and push it upwards so the marginal skills in the middle-weights become light-weights. You still get the heavy-weights but you also get more skills that can't be countered well. If, no the other hand, you think such skills are gettin got strong, you pump up removal. Make it quicker, more efficient, more effective, and you turn some of the bulkier middle-weights into heavy-weights. There'll still be some skills that removal can't compete with - those hexes or enchantments that are just too quick or too cheap still - but there'll be a lot less of them. Removal has to be carefully pitched to what you consider to be the middle range. It's never going to be a "sexy" option because if it is it's gone too far. But it has to be more effective and efficient than those skills in the middle range so that it can be a proper counter. There's always going to be a reaction time, a casting time, before removal can take effect so it needs to be strong enough to smack anything worthwhile right off once it finally arrives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarus

Yes hehe ... but only cause I always play an IW memser. If enchantment removals ever gets balanced then there goes my livelihood.

IW builds have only ever thrived because enchantment removal has been weak. If they get fixed then you're going to be in a lot of trouble as an IW. Probably to the point where IW's duration will need to come down - along with the recharge and energy cost - in order to make it viable again. That, or as Chuck says, you'll need to get used to running it in bursts and relying on something else. Same thing with Conjures or anything else with a long duration and a long cooldown. Those are the types of enchantments it should be ridiculously easy to counter, the big, sitting ducks. That's just the way things go.

mostro · Mar 28, 2005, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mss Drizzt

I have a question.?? Keep in mind that I have not yet played PvP.

Everyone keeps giving the cold shoulder to Warriors. What if the Warrior were to go straight for the oposing monk.?

Nothing much probably. One or two warriors are hardly anything to worry about. Most teams would probably cast ward against melee or hex these warriors with shadow of fear+enfeebling blood. Your warrior may cause a little trouble if he is using a disruption build (skull crack, discrupting chop, etc.) but even then he is still not a number one priority on the kill list.

Now, I have seen some teams use their warriors to box in the enemy monks on a corner and have their elementalists cast AE on them. Or hamstring/knockdown the monk while the eles cast eruptions/meteor storm. In these situations warriors can be nasty, but you still want to kill eles first before the warriors if possible.

Mss Drizzt · Mar 28, 2005, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoon

Everyone goes for monks first. Without them, it's a lot easier to kill everyone else.

I don't think anyone is saying that Warriors aren't useful. They just aren't high on the priority list by any means.

But do they not deal the most DPS. And are the second hardest to kill.
Could not a good warrior take out the Mesmer casting the interups and the Elementalists. Would not his prime targets not be these people and not other warriors.?

Nash · Mar 28, 2005, 04:56 PM // 16:56

For targeting order I follow this: (copy/paste off my Tombs guide)
If you are the target caller, you will want to call healers first; Mo and E/Mo, then casters since they have lower armor, and then Rangers and Warriors. You may also want to take out Monk secondaries after their healers are down, to stop them from resurrecting.

Odd Sock · Mar 28, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mss Drizzt

But do they not deal the most DPS. And are the second hardest to kill.
Could not a good warrior take out the Mesmer casting the interups and the Elementalists. Would not his prime targets not be these people and not other warriors.?

You always have to take out healing first. If you go for those targets, they'll get healed faster than what you can dish out and no lone warrior can take out a target that is monk supported. If you want a simple strategy that's quite often very effective: get 3 Wa/Mos with Final Thrust. When the target reaches 50% insta-kill him with 3 simultaneous FT's. It takes coordination with your teammates but when you learn to pull it off it's deadly.

The only time a 'good' warrior ('good' because a warrior's 'goodness' is often dependant on the status of the battle itself) is when the first monk is dead. With the rest of your team pounding away at the second or third one, you can, if the you judge by how the fight is going, peel off and murder casters or rangers. And to do so doesn't require a good warrior, you just need Berserker Stance, a few conditions, Galrath Slash and Final Thrust. It can take just a few seconds especially if you have left over adrenaline from the previous target to charge your Final Thrust. In my experience, monk supported characters are near invincible while non-monk supported characters are often left with the best counter: running away.

So you guessed it, the best way to win is to kill monks and this explains the nature of this thread: enchant and hex removal since monks generally enchant themselves and break the good hexes cast upon them.

Hado · Mar 28, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58

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Last I checked the only Korean team that was worth the time of day was KOR, and it isn't like they're doing anything particularly revolutionary.

Right, they're not doing anything special, they simply stick with what works. The game is skewed so heavily towards defense right now, it's obvious to them that it's what wins games. They don't bother wasting time on things like hexes. They know that enchants, hex removal, and power healing are so much more powerful than the available counters, doing anything else is generally a waste of effort. The $30k tournament is running, and I'll eat my hat if the winners don't end up using a Warrior and Monk heavy team based almost entirely on enchants, power healing, and constant high-dps.

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What hexes are you talking about where a simple heal will do the trick? I'm talking about good hexes here. Backfire, Shame, Arcane Conundrum. Hexes that will shut someone down if they are not dealt with - how exactly is a simple heal going to help with that?

I'm talking about hexes like Weaken Armor, Life Siphon, Conjure Phantasm, etc (not like they're played much in high end pvp anyway). There's no reason to make an effort to remove them on separate players when a simple heal does the trick. As for Backfire (maybe not so much now that it only lasts 10 seconds), Conundrum, Scourge Healing, etc.. the worthy ones get dealt with as soon as they're put in play. For hex stacking, there's always Convert Hexes.. and also remember they run with multiple monks on the team doing hex removal, so often it's not needed. I'm all for the theory that hex stacking should be a valid strategy, but with the current costs, recharge rates, and number of playable hexes it's a losing battle against a team based utterly on defense, especially when they can focus hex removal better than you can hex.

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That's just coordination. If you're casting a single hex and hoping it'll stick you're delusional. If you want to shut someone down, you need to back it up.

Exactly. So you've gotten most of your team to stack enough hexes to annoy a single player for a couple seconds, now what about all their other monks?

Quote:

Agreed, Necromancer hexes, particularly damage amplification, are pretty much trash. Which confuses me - why are you using bad hexes as a basis of comparison? The problem isn't with the hex/removal dynamic - which is pretty much where it needs to be - but with a particular subset of hexes that are pretty sad.

If the problem is with big, slow, klunky skills, that's unavoidable in a game with counters. The 25 energy enchantments have the same issues, as well as any skill with a 5 second cast time. They're extremely vulnerable and get countered by good teams. This is just a consequence of competitive games - better play becomes faster and tighter, and those slow plays no longer cut it. I'd just assume that skills like Weaken Armor are for PvE and other areas of the game - not everything is going to cut it in PvP but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its place.

I think we can generally agree that the problem isn't with hex removal.. It's the lack of feasible hexes and the lack of chaff, like how there are 5 energy, 2 recast enchants that are cheap but useful in their own right. All the options you have for hexes are either high cost/high recast, or not worth having on your skill bar in the first place. That, and I'm not fine with the fact that the number of competitively playable hexes is so low. There's not much room for strategic diversity when you have an entire class that consists of unplayable hexes. In the end, it'll make for a better game even if they only get around to fixing damage amplification and healing reduction skills. Man, those Necro hexes sure are useless. *hint hint*

As for enchantment skills that have high recharge/costs like IW, if enchantment removal is ever fixed their costs should be lowered to reflect high end gameplay.

Ensign · Mar 28, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by mostro

Like Charles said, if you have a long recharge important enchantment that you wish to keep, you better protect that investment.

Well, in an ideal world you'd have to. But right now, don't bother - enchantment removal is godawful, you can run around with naked enchantments with little fear of them getting hit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mss Drizzt

Everyone keeps giving the cold shoulder to Warriors. What if the Warrior were to go straight for the oposing monk.?

Well, what were you planning to do with your Warrior? Attack their Warriors? Please.

No one's disrespecting Warriors, at least in this thread. The point is that trying to kill Warriors when the other team still has a solid healing and disruption base is pointless - you're not going to deal damage fast enough through a Warrior's natural defenses if he has Monk support.

You're much better off disabling Warriors and attacking more critical targets on the other team - their Monks and Mesmers. Once those are out of the way you can deal with actually killing the Warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odd Sock

The only time a 'good' warrior ('good' because a warrior's 'goodness' is often dependant on the status of the battle itself) is when the first monk is dead.

The strength of a Warrior is his ability to extend deeply into the opposing team and cause chaos. The weakness of the Warrior is that he has to extend deeply into the other team to be effective.

If I'm targeting a Warrior in the middle of a fight, it's because he's grossly overextended and cut himself off from his healers. Without Monk support, even a defensive Wa/Mo is going to go down pretty quickly under focused fire. So a Warrior has to always be careful about how far off he runs, balancing his effectiveness against getting cut off from the team.

That said, if not dealt with a Warrior is the most dangerous attacker on the battlefield.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hado

Right, they're not doing anything special, they simply stick with what works. The game is skewed so heavily towards defense right now, it's obvious to them that it's what wins games.

That's why they ran a one Monk, heavy offense build last BWE, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hado

The $30k tournament is running, and I'll eat my hat if the winners don't end up using a Warrior and Monk heavy team based almost entirely on enchants, power healing, and constant high-dps.

I'd bet against Warrior-heavy team, actually - they're far too easily neutralized. But heavy enchantments, power healing, and sustained DPS? Definitely. I'd guess at a 3 monk config with several Rangers, myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hado

As for Backfire (maybe not so much now that it only lasts 10 seconds), Conundrum, Scourge Healing, etc.. the worthy ones get dealt with as soon as they're put in play.

Right, and dealing with them eats up a good chunk of time. Disrupting their Monks so that they can't spam heal a focused target - that's the entire point of a Mesmer, and their hexes are very good at that.

Agreed that you really don't want to try and pile hexes onto a single target because you're just asking to get converted. You want to get enough midrange hexes onto someone so that they're ineffective and it's non-trivial to get them back into action. In practice that means a hex that sticks and a chaff hex or two.

But, again, these are shutdown hexes, not junk like DoTs or damage amplification. DoTs are best used as chaff hexes - damage amplification is a PvE trick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hado

I'm all for the theory that hex stacking should be a valid strategy

What sort of hex stacking? Debuff stacking? The thing about hex stacking is that it's something that inherently diminishes. If you're trying to shut someone down, you only need so many to make them useless - hell, just getting one to stick will do the trick. Piling damage amplification onto someone? Well, ok, but we know how that goes.

I don't like to think of Guild Wars as a game that rewards extremes, but one that rewards synergy and balance. I'd prefer to see hex spam team builds as an interesting exception instead of the rule. That's pretty much the case right now - you can do some combo smashing with Soul Barbs / Fragility as a team but in general hexes are something to use in moderation, not to gorge on.

Is that really a bad thing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hado

Exactly. So you've gotten most of your team to stack enough hexes to shutdown a single player for a couple seconds, now what about all the other monks?

'Enough' hexes in this case is 'one', because Arcane Conundrum or Backfire will shut someone down perfectly well on their own with only a minimal amount of support. You don't have to hex spam someone out - judicious use of a couple well timed ones works fine.

Just take the case of Arcane Conundrum, backed up with an interrupt or two. There's no way that he's going to get to remove Conundrum himself given the current state of hex removal - he's going to have to have a teammate remove it. Communicating the need for the removal, plus the time spent casting Remove Hex, eats up at least 3 and likely 4-5 seconds. The guy with Conundrum on him isn't going to be doing anything for those 4-5 seconds, either - if he does he's just going to eat a Power Leak and be in even worse shape. So overall, for spending roughly 2 seconds and 10 energy casting Conundrum, you've knocked 8-10 seconds of healing power off on the opposing Monk team. I'd take a trade like that any day.

If you have a chaff hex or two (like the DoTs), they're going to have to resort to Convert Hexes, which hits their energy hard. Then you just do it over again with Diversion, or Shame, or Backfire, or whatever.

No, hexes don't have any issues. They're bloody powerful and the fact that teams run 3-4 unappealing options for dealing with them speaks to that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hado

All the options you have for hexes are either high cost/high recast, or not worth having on your skill bar in the first place.

I think you're focusing too heavily on the Barbs/Mark of Pain/Weaken Armor trio, which is indeed weak. The Curses line is actually pretty solid - Shadow of Fear both recycles quickly and is AoE, hexing out an entire Warrior train - spot removal isn't going to come close. Malaise is *the* spam hex - it's so good that I don't even think of it as a spam hex, but it ends up functioning as chaff anyway because you cast it so often. Best reason there is for going Mesmer/Necromancer. Add to that some of the more marginal hexes (Faintheartedness), tack on the Enfeeble skills and the critical Rend Enchantments, and you have a playable PvP line. Curses does to Warriors what Domination does to Monks.

Granted, offensive hexes *are* bad - I wouldn't mind seeing recycle buffs to Weaken Armor or Barbs. They might be getting stifled by PvE concerns, I don't know. Mark of Pain isn't going to be good in PvP, at least if people ever learn to not stand in AoEs. It's an outstanding PvE skill, though.

Necros just aren't very deep PvP characters - a fact I blame heavily on them losing two of four attributes to PvE on. They have a critical niche, and I'd be wary to run a team without a Necro or two, but they certainly don't have the diversity their skill list might indicate at first glance.

Peace,
-CxE

Hado · Mar 29, 2005, 02:27 AM // 02:27

I think you're putting too much value into those 8-10 seconds of healing disruption.

When it comes down to fighting for that $30k, would it be better to have a player that diverts all his attention to potentially shut down a single monk for a few seconds, or replace that player slot with someone that actually does high sustained dps or someone that can improve your defense and keep your team alive?

It will be interesting to see if the finalists of the tournament actually run with any hexxing (Arcane Conundrum, Backfire and everything else included), if at all. My prediction is that the winner will just stick with power healing, mass enchants/defense skills, and sustained-dps characters (mixed in with some interrupts and knockdowns), and just *maybe* you'll see a hex or two sneak by, but their strategies certainly won't be based around incorporating them.

Anyway, I'm hoping ArenaNet's not just throwing $30k away and not actually providing videos and detailed coverage. It would be the obvious way to introduce Guild Wars as a legitimate competitive gaming platform.

Sausaletus Rex · Mar 29, 2005, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hado

I think you're putting too much value into those 8-10 seconds of healing disruption.

It takes someone doing 50DPS - not an unreasonable benchmark, especially over a small time frame - roughly 10 seconds to kill an undefended target. Two characters doing 50DPS slaughter someone in 5 seconds. Three just over 3 seconds. Four and you're at just under 3. Say you're running with idiots and your damage dealers only top out around 40DPS. That's 4 seconds with three of them, 3 seconds with four.

Tell me again why you wouldn't run characters to take those Monks out?

8, 10, 15 seconds. That's how quick it is to decide a battle. I'll take a character who can control those windows of opportunity any day.

Mar 29, 2005, 02:47 AM // 02:47

i think you're confusing what hexes really do. No team is going to "base" their strategy around running arcane conundrum and backfire. They will have one or possibly two mesmers devoted to this kind of thing and not a whole team built for it.

Ensign · Mar 29, 2005, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hado

When it comes down to fighting for that $30k, would it be better to have a player that diverts all his attention to potentially shut down a single monk for a few seconds, or replace that player slot with someone that actually does high sustained dps or someone that can improve your defense and keep your team alive?

False dilemma. Mesmers don't spend all their effort on shutting down a Monk for a few seconds - a good Mesmer, using a combination of hexes, interrupts, and energy denial, will knock out *multiple* monks for an extended period of time. We're not talking about a character spending all of his effort to shut down a Monk for 8-10 seconds - we're talking about *a single hex* being used to buy 8-10 seconds *per cast*. You have a whole skill bar full of disruption that can gunk up the opposition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hado

It will be interesting to see if the finalists of the tournament actually run with any hexxing (Arcane Conundrum, Backfire and everything else included), if at all.

I would be extraordinarily surprised if they do not. Not just because hexes are strong, but because of cultural bias towards such things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hado

but their strategies certainly won't be based around incorporating them.

Basing any strategy upon a particular skill, or class of skills, is just asking for trouble. You're basically throwing the dice on whether or not they'll be able to remove it and cripple your character - so the rewards of doing so have got to be impressive.

So will they base their builds on hex spam? Of course not, that would be foolish. But it would be equally foolish to ignore hexes entirely considering the raw power some of them have. No, you'll likely see them sprinkled into flexible, redundant builds to be used in key situations - just as they should be.

Peace,
-CxE

Greentongue · Mar 29, 2005, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Doesn't the addition of enchantments and the chaff to protect them make Desecrate Enchantments a good choice to include on your skill bar? Even going so far as to include ways to multi/fast cast it?

Desecrate Enchantments [15,2,15] (Spell) Target foe and all nearby foes (within 25 feet) take 6..49 shadow damage and 4..17 shadow damage for each Enchantment on them.

Sausaletus Rex · Mar 29, 2005, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Desecrate Enchantments does damage, it doesn't do anything about the enchantments being there, which is the real important part. You might do decent damage with it only to run into an enchantment to neutralize it like Divine Intervention, Reversal of Fortune, Protective Spirit, or Shield of Healing.

For that matter, 15 energy with a 2.75 casting time and a 15 second recharge time for 49 damage plus 17 for each enchantments isn't really all that much to write home about. That's 18DPS + 6DPS for each enchantment on a target. You need four enchantments on a target before it even becomes a bit threatening but it's still a lousy 3.2DPE + 1.2DPE per enchantment with a long recharge time. If you can catch someone with a lot of enchantments it can be fairly effective but there are better skills for causing damage - not really for a Necromancer, but still. Granted, it's AoE and a fairly good spread but that's only good if your opponents are bunching up which they shouldn't be. It's just a pretty conditional skill overall and one that's only good if your opponent acts how you expect them to, never a good assumption to make.

Greentongue · Mar 29, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex

Granted, it's AoE and a fairly good spread but that's only good if your opponents are bunching up which they shouldn't be. It's just a pretty conditional skill overall and one that's only good if your opponent acts how you expect them to, never a good assumption to make.

I was thinking that with the environment where stacked enchantments were common, it would go from a "No Way" to a "Maybe".

The fact that it DIDN'T remove them was to be a plus (providing reusability) but, it is true that some of the ones not removed could be an issue.

Scaphism · Mar 29, 2005, 08:02 PM // 20:02

One medium-high level Reversal of Fortune will completely negate the damage from Desecrate Enchantments. I think you have the right idea looking for skills that punish people for enchantment spamming, but this isn't the right skill for it.

No, in my mind, Melandru's Arrows is more in line with punishment when removal isn't reasonable.

Quote:

For 18 seconds, whenever your arrows hit, they cause Bleeding for 3-21 seconds and do 8-24 more damage if they hit a target who is under an Enchantment. 5 energy, 2 second cast time, 12 second recharge time

Unfortunately it's an elite skill, but it's still one of the best, if not the best preparation available, making all of your arrows into Power Shot arrows for 18 seconds. Bleeding is nice if you want to spread it around, or if you have a lot of sword warriors with Gash who don't want to bring sever artery.

BE|Dac · Mar 29, 2005, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Good points,

I have lent towards that some pfb members comments on the game are true.

For instance

Rangers:

70 armor +30 vrs elemental

... +30! thats 100 armor vrs elemental damage.

Now you look at the caster class of ele....

The only one you will see in high tier competition would be Air mage.. and then I dunno...

If you want to be an awesome team..

run 2 Rangers/Warriors

Watch yourself (4 addren (bows gain addren))
Shields up (10 energy)

+50 armor vrs piecing
+20 armor vrs everything else.

If you use a good skill combo aka KIN, average 90 damage a hit, + Tigers furry to increase that 33%

2 Ele

Secondary or primary

Ward against elements
Ward against foes
Ward against Mellee
Ward Against Harm

Slows movement
+24 armor vrs elements
+24 armor vrs evertyhing else (harm)
Mellee 1/2 time they miss.

Stack up all this on your front line..

Now just mix in this defensive stuff, ex Traps, Wards, Enchants...

Hold a line, keep your monks back.. Pull if they target you... And gg

BTW hado get in the irc I wanna talk if ya care

and also, there are counters to this strategy. But no one has run one good yet.. well ive seen it happen once.

Nudge · Mar 29, 2005, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enix

I seriously hope that the W/Mo build dosent totally dominate this game.

It would be nice if Necros were given some spells specifically to jack up Monks, since Necros arent very popular.

Necros need something more along the lines of "healing booby-traps" and a more parasitic line. I could see necros more feeding off the living than controlling the dead, IMO, but I'm still no game designer.

BE|Dac · Mar 29, 2005, 09:28 PM // 21:28

I like hado's points..

Lingering curse is okay, but for 25 energy, huge cast time, you basically get a rend and defile flesh which is removed asap by good teams. Hexes just lose their flavor when vrs a good team..

Although I would have to say, good coordinated and smart hexing is viable.

For instance, throw up lingering, cover with 2 spam hexes. This requires at least 15 energy or a 3 second purge signet to remove.

but still you would be hard pressed to kill the focused target (lingering curse basically is,KILL this target), because healing seeds, guardian, protective spirit, would all go up if while you are plinking away. Requiring a rend which takes a while.. in this time they can remove etc.

I think the major strategic point of KOR > n0 was the point of pulling. I have no knowledge of the actual match, nothign but mostly fake heresay.

But basically, KIN would hold a line, if you targetted one of them, they would pull you. While pulled you are just running, doing nothing. The fault of the strategy was, you could run up to a certain X distance away, where you could continue firing for enough time to kill them before they escaped. Actually snaring them would require spamming a hex, and the best cost on any snare is 15 energy without elite... Try spamming that and killing the running target, While getting hit. Warriors in some cases dont have to run if they use Watch yourself, (4 addren cost) etc and have decent healers/prot